Dining across the divide: ‘I suggested we add each other on social media. He said, I don’t see that we’d ever meet again’

A writer and a master’s student disagree on how to describe the conflict in the Middle East, but what are their views on the monarchy?

BJ, 46, Norwich

Occupation Writer and translator

Voting record Lib Dem in the last election, “the best of a bad bunch”. Also has US citizenship and votes Democrat, again with reservations

Amuse bouche She got stuck in quicksand in a US national park as a child. On the same holiday, she got caught in a buffalo stampede

Toby, 25, Norwich

Occupation Postman, studying for a master’s in environmental assessment and management

Voting record Labour in 2019 and Green in the recent locals

Amuse bouche Toby’s dissertation is on the impact of beaver reintroduction on water quality in chalk streams

For starters

BJ He was much younger than I was expecting, and incredibly tall. I brought him a plant as a present and he seemed really surprised. Almost like, “Why are you being friendly to me?”

Toby I think we were both quite flustered when we arrived, but she put me at ease very quickly.

BJ The food was amazing. Banana blossom tacos, broccoli, aubergines, padrón peppers, oyster mushrooms. We both had a bakewell fizz – I think it’s prosecco and amaretto.

Toby She’s vegan, though I had some calamari. The fake-fish tacos were really good.

The big beef

BJ He brought up the genocide in Gaza. I said, “That’s an interesting word choice.” And he said, “It’s a very deliberate word choice.” My view is, obviously it’s a horrible situation and nobody wanted this war. But my understanding is that the Israeli army was trying, to the best of its ability, not to hit civilian targets. Unfortunately some were hit but, as horrible as it is to say it, that’s part of war. That happens in every war. Most often, I would suggest, people use this word due to ignorance, not fully thinking what “genocide” means – to me, it means a deliberate killing of a group of people.

Toby Systematic destruction, killing tens of thousands of people, destroying their homes and businesses, stopping them from returning: that’s what genocide is. I don’t see there’s any debate. BJ’s line was that the word “genocide” has these really specific terminologies, and unless you set out to destroy a people, you can’t call it that. I backed myself.

Sharing plate

Toby She agrees with the vast majority of the Green party’s policies, as do I. But she said that she couldn’t vote for them because she felt that their perspective on Palestine was encouraging a culture in which antisemitism was going to be more rife. I’m not at all qualified to tell a Jewish person that they’re wrong when it comes to antisemitism. I don’t think that being pro-Palestine is antisemitic.

BJ I consider myself quite left wing: I care about environmental causes; I don’t eat meat. But some of the people canvassing for the Greens were caught on camera saying antisemitic things. Some wanted a conference motion that said Zionism was racism – I found that really shocking.

Toby I asked, “If the Greens got into power, can you imagine them actually doing anything that would make your life worse?”

BJ I said it was the words they’re saying that are problematic – they’re encouraging protests against Israel, which are making Jews less safe. I do feel that they might start enacting laws that would make life for Jewish people worse.

For afters

BJ I misheard him – I thought he said, “What are your views on kink?” So we started talking about monogamy. We both felt that society was changing and monogamy was not really fit for purpose. But then it became clear that he said king.

Toby I don’t agree with the monarchy. But they’re the best worst option. If we were to get rid of the king, we’d have to have a democratically elected head of state and, unless it were David Attenborough, that would be worse.

Takeaways

BJ I suggested we add each other on social media and he didn’t want to. He said, “I don’t see that we would ever meet again” and I thought, “OK, we live in a very small city, but fine.”

Toby “Mothering me” would be far too strong, but there was an element of her being a professor and me being a student. But we left on very good terms.

Additional reporting: Kitty Drake

• BJ and Toby ate at Blue Joanna in Norwich, Norfolk

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